The idea of Christian pacifism is a concept that has always troubled, confused, and therefore beguiled me. Late Night, we have briefly discussed the topic before, but more as a tangent than as the exclusive focal point of conversation. So I’ll follow your lead and do my best to spark some debate on the issue.
The argument for Christian pacifism in the face of violence and oppression is deeply rooted in Biblical teachings. In the passage LNC offered up (Romans 12: 17-21) the command is explicit: “Do not repay anyone evil for evil,” “Never avenge yourselves,” etc.
The instruction to avoid violence at all costs seems to me to be one of the most clearly stated, inarguable orders in the Bible. Yet, when I think about it logically, placing pragmatism and realism above blind faith, it also seems to be one of the most impractical.
As individuals it may be realistic to live a life of pacifism. But we live in the most powerful, influential nation in the world, and as such we (as a country) constantly face the threat of attack from groups that disagree with America’s ideology, democracy, culture, etc. America, as a nation, simply can’t afford to be pacifistic. This would be seen as a weakness and exploited.
The problem is that America loves to think of itself as a “Christian Nation,” and here we face the sticky issue of trying to merge faith and politics (a problem that extends far beyond the idea of pacifism and has resulted in some utterly mind boggling legislations).
My honest opinion is that faith, and biblical concepts such as pacifism, are personal and only work when applied on an individual basis. While it may be realistic for you and me to be pacifists, it would be absurd for a nation to disband its army and adopt pacifism (one of many reasons that the idea of a “Christian Nation” is rubbish).
Here we face another problem: the majority of this country claims itself to be Christian. If everyone claiming to be Christian became a pacifist, America would find it difficult to assemble an army. I’m not really sure what to do about this. (Maybe an army of robots?)
I foresee this conversation at some point landing on the concept of the “just war.” I apologize for this preemptive strike, but I maintain that the idea of a “just war” simply doesn’t work. More often than not, the “justness” of a conflict is determined by whichever group holds the power in that time and place. Posterity determines which wars were just, but due to emotions and immediate interests we lack the objective reasoning necessary to determine whether the use of violence is justified.
I look forward to hearing everyone’s thoughts.
Thanks for reading.
Monday, October 1, 2007
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8 comments:
As you will see from my writings to come, I do not consider myself a pacifist and many of you probably know that already.
With that said my initial response is this. We all know that our God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. What we are shown in the Bible on war is a lot different in the Old testament vs the New testament (with the Old T. obviously being more open to war than the New T.). With that said the way God used wars and the way Jesus talked of how to treat your enemies seem to contradict a little bit.
But it remains that Jesus is God and God remains the same throughout eternity, so He cannot change his position. His view didn't all of a sudden switch when Jesus came to earth.
So if God hasn't changed and he has shown us both war and peace where does that leave us?
I believe that we are left to search for the truth in individual situations as the come at us. I do not think we can put a label on all Christians that we should be pacifist for all time, or that Christians should be pro-war for all time. Neither postion works for me.
I think that God has shown us his many sides and it is foolish to try to pretend we can figure God out. We don't know for sure why he had the israelites go to war and blessed them against their enemies by killing thousands of people. We don't know why he told the people in the New T. to love your enemies and turn the other cheek. All we know is that he did both things and we have to figure out how to live based off the examples.
Is it like Gruber said? Is pacifism more for the individual rather than a country? For me I would tend to think no. I believe that we need to take each situation as it is and react how we believe we should. Whether that is on an individual or a "country" basis. (But that idea is intriging to me because I haven't thought about that much before today, so actually for me the jury is still out on that one).
That brings me to "just war" idea that Gruber brought up at the end, but I do not want to get into that yet. What situation would allow a christian to go to war or to turn on his enemy? I will not try and answer that right now.
well said patrick!
This may take some time...such a tough issue...I really want to look at the origins of just war theory before I say much about it. Pcorcs, your OT/NT comments are not sitting well with me. Why? I'm not sure yet, but I want to ponder and research first. I must exercise my name and hit this on the late night...Good thoughts Zot and Pcorcs...
I wish i could say something intelligent but i know saying something would just dummy up the blog. So i will say that i really lean with what Pat has said and thats that. If you need reason, well i dare you to ask me and maybe i'll give you some, if your lucky!
Cassel i miss you cute buns and your big hog. Come home soon!
I was waiting to hear more from Cassel on this. As the rest of you have said I agree with Pat as well. It is a pretty heavy post for a Monday and I was prepared to come up with an in depth comment, so this will have to do.
Joey I am going to take your dare. I am feeling lucky and I would like to know your reason for agreeing with Pat and what you have to say.
Pacifism should be something we constantly work toward, not an ideological indentifier. It's certainly a noble ideal when fighting for one's independence, but it's also a borderline criminal stance when confronted with genocide.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that pacifism should not be a doctrine, or even a philosophy. It should instead be a constant and major influence, if that makes sense.
I'll let you guys battle over biblical presedence.
I'm glad you brought this issue up Gruber. I too have wrestled quite a bit with this issue. I think I have oppinion on it, but I haven't qiute worked out all of the kinks. Here are some of my thoughts on some of the issues that have been raised. I would love some imput.
With regards to Scripture I agree with Pat that God is the same God of the OT as the NT. However I would say that the NT is just as open to the idea of war as the OT. True the OT does give us more of a picture of how God defended his people, while the people of God were isolated to one nation, but God still dfeends his people post NT. He does this through the authorities that are in power, because the poeple of God are no longer isolated to one nation, but are rather composed of the nations of the world. We can see this in such passages as Rom. 13:1-4 and I Peter 2:13-14, where the Bible is clearly telling us to come under the protection of these leaders. I Peter especially shows that the governments are there for our protection, which I think can some times means going to war.
Now on the flip side both the OT and the NT support Jesus claim to turn the other cheek. The OT forbids murder in the Ten commnadments, just as Christ forbid it in the sermon on the mount. So, I think if we look at the Bible as a whole we can see that God is a just God who executes justice through leaders of nations, while at the same time he is a God who calls his people to not return the favor of evil done to them.
Gurber, I think that you are right in that each person is supposed to exucute some kind of pacifism, but a nation cannot. The U.S. would no longer be a country without the protection of our armies. Now this does not mean that a country can just go pushing its wait around and take over, which I think our country is pretty damn close to doing. A nation can not lord its power over people, but it should use it to protect its people from those who would come to steal, kill, and destroy. "For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil" (Rom.14:3).
Now where this all gets fuzzy for me is when you have an bad ruler. Can you be in the Nazi army? Can you be in the American army today? (I fully support our troops, but sometimes I wonder about the decisions of our nations leaders, not just Bush but all of them) I don't know .
Here is the best answer I have found on this issue. It comes form my chruchs confesion, the Westminster Confession, which reads,
"God, the supreme Lord and King of all the world, hath ordained civil magistrates, to be, under him, over the people, for his own glory, and the public good: and, to this end, hath armed them with the power of the sword, for the defense and encouragement of them that are good, and for the punishment of evildoers" (Chapter 23.1).
I remember something about Canada...
Here's a question/proposition for all Zizzle-Zotians:
Over the past few weeks I have come to know and respect many of you, whether it be on this site or in person. I certainly consider some of you to be new friends of mine. One thing that has excited me is, quite frankly, how different you guys (are there any female Zotzians?) are from the people I usually associate with.
You see, I'm an agnostic...and a pretty devout one at that. I know most of you guys are thoughtful Christians and at least a couple of you are Pastors in the making.
I guess what I'm trying to say in WAY too many words is this: Would anyone be interested if I started a blog that expressed the questions and concerns of a respectful agnostic and you could respond in any way you see fit. I don't know about you guys, but I've LOVED the conversations I've had with a few of you already and I can only imagine how many pages we'd fill up with quality conversation.
So what say you? This blog would really only work if you guys were as enthusiastic about it as I am, or at least 73% as enthusiastic.
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