Following the WeFest posts Werd (aka my voice of reason) raised some thoughtful concerns on the issue of drunkenness. I know that P Corcs and Joey are interested in having a conversation on this topic, and hopefully other readers will join in the debate as it progresses. Zizzle-Zot would like to begin with some initial thoughts which hopefully open up into a forum for discussion.
The consumption of alcohol is an ancient tradition and has been used for millennia as a means of fellowship and celebration. In addition, many poor civilizations throughout history haven’t had access to clean drinking water and would therefore drink wine or ale with meals for health reasons.
From a Biblical stance, the consumption of alcohol isn’t condemned, and several passages portray alcohol in a positive light (Ecclesiastes 9:7, Psalm 104:14-15, Amos 9:14). Jesus himself drank wine (John 2:1-11, Matthew 26:29) and turned water into wine for a wedding celebration.
That said, I would never attempt to make the argument that drunkenness is Biblical. Christians are called to avoid drunkenness and to condemn its effects (Ephesians 5:18, Proverbs 23:29-35). Plus, it would be a huge stretch to say that intoxication is glorifying to God.
It’s no secret that I, on occasion, find myself intoxicated, and Werd would like to know why. I can honestly say that the first two explanations Werd proposes (lack of will power, peer pressure) are not the case. I have no problem having a beer or two and stopping, and if I don’t want to drink I have no problem abstaining from alcohol while I’m around friends who are drinking. I can confidently say that most (not all) of the friends I drink with are in the same position. The next explanation used is taste. I do like the taste of beer and certain liquors, such as whiskey, but I’d be a fool to pretend that I get intoxicated because I like the taste. I like the taste of orange juice, but I rarely drink it in quantities larger than a glass at a time.
To be perfectly blunt, I would argue Werd’s fun argument (“Don’t tell me because it’s fun”). It’s a lot of fun, that’s a fact. But I understand Werd’s trepidation surrounding this reasoning. We are held to a higher standard and to live life based on “fun” is selfish and hedonistic. And the results of intoxication (headaches, exhaustion, etc.) certainly aren’t very much fun.
So why do we do it?
I’ve actually been thinking about the reasoning a lot lately, particularly since I’ve had to cut back drastically because of my marathon training. What, exactly, is the draw? I had an interesting conversation with a girl at WeFest about it, and felt like I was on to something. It was, and still is, an undeveloped theory (and I’m sure the girl thought I was certifiably insane), but now’s a good chance to give it a try.
The essence of humanity is connection. We are creatures designed to be social, to be in fellowship, to know and be known, to be loved and accepted. We long to be vulnerable, to be open, to let someone see who we truly are and not be ashamed.
It’s true that some people drink to escape themselves, so that they can be someone else for a while.
But speaking for myself and the people I surround myself with, I feel free to be truer to who I am when I’m intoxicated. Our daily lives are spent building barriers that prevent connection. We have so many boundaries created by social customs, mutual misunderstandings, intolerance, etc. that it becomes nearly impossible to communicate honestly on a personal level.
Alcohol, by lowering inhibitions, establishes a comfort zone. I can have conversations, deeply personal, intense conversations, that I would never have without a few drinks. I can talk to a complete stranger about important issues like spirituality or premarital sex (both conversations I had at WeFest) with complete openness. These types of connections would be nearly impossible for me to establish in any other setting. I believe most people have the same difficulties.
This is what I was trying to explain to the girl I mentioned at WeFest. How amazing that tens of thousands of young people drove for hours to camp out in a field, be filthy and tired for days, just so that they could feel that connection to each other. Like I said, she thought I was crazy, so it’s very possible that I’m way off base.
Of course I think it’s unfortunate that this is a reality. I wish I could maintain that level of vulnerability and honesty without alcohol. I’m working on it, but so far I still find it difficult. Do I think this is a good excuse, or a justification? Probably not, but for now it’s what I’ve got…
Thoughts?
Thanks for reading.
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4 comments:
Alright here it goes. You said some interesting things and I know that some of the things I am going to say you might say "Well he has never been drunk, he doesn't know what it is like."
To be honest I have never had to become drunk to have a good, wholesome conversation with someone. To say that it helps you be more real with a person sounds like an excuse to me, even though you say it isn't one. But if you say that, then you are saying that since I have never been drunk/intoxicated I have never had a true and open conversation on a personal level with another person. The truth is that I have had plenty honest and personal conversations with people, without alcohol.
It is fine to have a few drinks and have a conversation with someone, but you don't need to be drunk. Some of the things you say when you are drunk you might not even remember the next day or you might regret them. How does that work? I know that it is possible for a person to be true and open with another person without alcohol. It is probably harder, but I know it is positively possible. Alcohol sounds like a short cut and a justification to be real with someone. Now I am speaking of becoming drunk with alcohol, not just drinking it. It is fine to drink some alcohol during a conversation, but also having the presence of mind to know when to stop drinking.
You saying, "I wish I could maintain that level of vulnerability and honesty without alcohol. I’m working on it, but so far I still find it difficult". That is a great statement. A great challenge for you. You didn't say impossible, but difficult, so it is possible.
Now where is the line of drunkenness, I don't know. But as a person of God and a good conscious, I am sure you know. I want to make it clear that I am not against having a few drinks over good conversation. I have a had a few drinks and like you said, that is Biblical, so I am not arguing that. The drunkenness is wrong and will never be right in my book, no matter what the circumstances.
So I think we are clear on everything. I like talking about this stuff. We come from very different view points and situations. Another reason I don't drink much, it is expensive and I like the taste of other cheaper beverages.
Have a few drinks, have some good wholesome conversations being yourself without getting drunk.
I am going to say it to you drew, not to be mean or to leave it at that, but to try to explain better... you have never been drunk so you don't totally understand it.
To start, I do not believe when the bible speaks of drunkeness it speaks to social drinking. I believe the sin in drunkeness is when it becomes a lifestyle or when it is taken used in exessivness to where it effects other parts of your life in a negative way.
Speaking to my original point on the comment. I say that because I believe the line that people who have never been "drunk" put on "too much" is way short (because i used to do the same). Yes, it is different for every person. But speaking for someone like myself (aka Huge) if i eat a large meal and drink all night, i could have 15 alcoholic beverages and not feel a thing.
I do believe that the amount of drinking in a single time can get excessive. This happens when a person become beligerant, non-responsive, black out, etc. But this only happens when a person consumes enough alcohol to move them from the point where they are comprehensive and involved in great human relations to over the edge. It is a thin line, but that is the line in my mind where drinking becomes excessive.
Yes i have crossed that line before, that is how i know.
Like Gruber says, it really does open up a part of you that you cannot do without it. You become so much more free. Recessive feeling, ideas, and beliefs come forth that i truly believe otherwise would not. Yes, i have had deep meaningful conversations when i am 100% sober, but it just isn't the same. It is a whole different level.
Yes, I do not always engage in deep meaninful conversations everytime i drink, but i do still fellowship with my best buddies. Yes i fellowship without drinking too, but i do not think there is anything wrong with drinking 10, 12, 15 beers in a night as long as you don't cross the point i described early. That is where i think it is wrong. I have been there before, not only do i believe it is wrong, but it just isn't fun to me either, so that is another reason not to go that far.
When i picture the drinking of alcohol in the bible i picture people at the wedding feast sitting around and drinking during the whole feast and enjoy each other. I don't see people stopping after 2 drinks because that is getting excessive. If that were the case, they wouldn't have probably run out of wine.
Maybe i just feel this way because i enjoy the taste of alcohol and the feeling of drinking it. Maybe my viewpoints are tainted, but i am really trying to speak the truth from my heart and what i honestly have sought and believe. But maybe i should have some drinks and re-write this post and see if i say anything different :)
Disclaimer: I don't know if this post makes any sense, i just have been rambling on.
I knew that would come to bite me in the butt, but I don't ever plan on getting drunk so it will have to stay that way.
Pat I think we both agree on it being ok to do social drinking and I understand that there is no definite line for being drunk. It is different for all types of people.
My main argument is to not drink until you are drunk. The problem is, the more you drink, the closer you get to that "fine line" you are talking about. I have heard people say they believe it is wrong to be drunk and that they won't drink that much, but then sure enough, they start and before you know it they have had one too many. It is a touchy subject and I realize that a sin is a sin and one is not worse then the others.
I just don't like hearing things about people getting drunk and talking about getting intoxicated like it is no big deal. It really bugged me when people were doing it while attending Bethel. I don't want to get into that, what's done is done.
It is also hard for me to understand because I don't really enjoy the tast of alcohol. Now you said that it is truly a different feeling when you have a few drinks and it opens things up in a conversation. I can't argue that because I have not felt that feeling. God uses those situations as he sees fit and I have not been called to do that at this point in time. Who knows what could happen. All I know is I don't want that to be used as a justification if the drinking goes to far and you become drunk. I truly believe that is where God tests you to see if you can be responsible and stop.
He also calls us to lift up our brothers and sisters. Drinking I believe can do both. On one hand it can open up conversations with a non-Christians who is at a bar and you pull up to have a few drinks with them and share the Gospel. It can also tear someone down because if they see you drinking, they think it is ok to drink and then they drink too much. I know they made the decision, but seeing someone drink pushed them to that point. The hard thing about alcohol is the fact that it messes with your body if abused and it needs to be handled with responsibility. As Christians it is our calling to reflect that responsibility and drink as if Christ did.
Anyway, this is my heart speaking and like I said earlier, I wouldn't bring it up if I didn't truly care and want to share my beliefs. I love you guys and it honestly hurts me when I hear about people getting drunk. I wish there was something I could to because I know everyone knows it is wrong, and I know that no one is perfect. But when other people hear about it and see it, it causes them to question who you really are. So this is my attempt to understand.
Allright i have to be a little briefer than you two because i actually have to get something done around here; so here we go:
I would say that i am kinda middle of the road on this one with my experience. I sat on the outside of the drinking circle till i was 21; unlike most of my friends who enjoyed the occasional weekend drunk party from time to time. I always use to wonder why people drank and why people would want to party just to forget what happened over the weekend.
It was until i started drinking and getting drunk on occassion that i realized i was wrong about a lot of my pre-conceived thoughts. I have been pretty drunk in my day (ok really drunk) but i would say that i have never forgot what i did the night before. I am not saying that is any reason for drinking to be ok, i am just meerly giving a background on my experiences.
One thing that i have a problem with is the word drunk. I feel like it is thrown around way too loosly. I guess it is interpreted in so many different ways that it is causing confusion between everybody's arguments. To some drunk is just at that point where you probably shouldn't drive but you can think clear as day (as hard as that is to believe; it is true though) and to others being drunk means you can't think on your own two feet and you don't even know what you are saying or doing half the time.
I know from my own experiences that i can relate with all of you guys about having DEEP conversations with people while drunk and while sober. Some of the conversations i have had while drunk are conversations i know i would never had the chance to have if i wasn't drinking; due to i know i wouldn't have been able to open myself up. And some of my conversations wouldn't work if i were drunk because i know certain people wouldn't take a person seriously if they have been drinking.
I would love to think that it would be possible for me to feel like i can open myself up to anybody in the future, but i just know it's not a part of my reallity.
Now on a side note i know that about 94 % of the time i am drinking or planning on going drinking it isn't becuase i am hoping and crossing my fingers that i get into a deep conversation. I am merely doing it becuase i enjoy the experience. I like going out and having a few drinks. To me it is just another way to free my self from the world for a while, and when i say that i mean it loosly as how i free myself from the world when i play video games, play sports, or read books (ok all but reading books are true).
Now one last thougt. I know from experience with wine that it dosn't take much to get a lil tipsy or at least a little buzzed. In my totally honest opinion i would put it past myself to say that Jesus probably got a little buzz in his day. I don't think it would be in his nature to over indulge by any means, but he is a man and he's not immune to alchohol.
Also by no means are we taking anything away from sober conversations. A conversation dosn't have to consist on any drunk people to be real. So don't take it that way.
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